[🇵🇰] Untitled 1987 War Book - Discussion

[Aestas Vivax]

Source : https://www.PKDefense.com

Ok, it is me, Aestas Vivax. My plans for a video have been significantly delayed, hence my pushing forward with the book since I have some time to spare to do so.It is an Indo-Pak war, set either in 1987 or 1988, depending on how I want it to play out. Let's just say there's a gap of 1 year to what happened to Kahuta, enough time for both sides to arm up more than usual when compared to real life.The reason for me setting up this thread is to help me establish a reasonable military at the moment for both sides, and to ensure I do not have bias. And yes, a creative license exists. (Don't worry about the war, I used a lot of my brain power to plan it out)For now, I have set up the Airforce of both sides (Combat Aircraft only, rn) and would like to get recommendations as to what could be added.

Pakistan Air Force
Foreign Volunteers
3 Sqns of F-5Es [20 each]
3 Sqns of Mirage IIIEs [15 each]
5 sqns of Mirage Vs [11 each]
1 Sqn of AH-1s [Towcobra, 12]

Newly Raised
2 sqn of F-16A/B OCU [40 As and 4 Bs]
2 Sqn of Mirage IIIO [24 Each]

Standing
1 Sqn Mirage III [15 EPs, 3DPs]
3 Sqn Mirage Vs [58]
4 Sqn Q-5 [50]
4 Sqn J-6 [110]
3 Sqn F-16 [28 As, 12 Bs]
2 Sqn J-7 [40]
1 Sqn Mirage IIIRP [12]
2 E-3A Leased

Indian Air Force
Standing
1 It bbr sqn with 9 Canberra.
5 sqn with 80 Jaguar IS.
14 sqn with 112 MiG-21 MF/PFMA.
3 sqn with 54 MiG-23 BN/UM.
4 sqn with 56 MiG-27.
4 sqn with 74 MiG-21 FL/U.
6 sqn with 108 MiG-21 bis/U.
2 sqn with 26 MiG-23 MF/UM.
3 sqn with 54 MiG-29/UB.
2 sqn with 36 Mirage 2000H/TH.
8 Jaguar with Sea Eagle.

Newly Raised
2 sqn with MiG-23MLD [36]
3 Sqn with MiG-21bis [54]
1 Sqn with Mirage 2000H/TH [18]
2 Tu-126 and 1 A-50 Leased

 

[TheNewb77]

@Old School Seems accurate enough, no?

 

[Aestas Vivax]

@Old School Seems accurate enough, no?

Could you mention individuals who might be interested in this?

 

[PakistanProud]

Could you mention individuals who might be interested in this?

There's @Lulldapull @ThunderCat @HAIDER @Finer @Rebirth @Muji.Iqbal @dalit

 

[Lulldapull]

I believe the Ex-Aussie Mirage IIIO's (58) didn't arrive until 1992 if I'm not wrong. And the Tu-126 was not operational in the late 80's (actually it was never transferred to IAF) and had been replaced by the An-74 Awacs, A-50/ IL-76 didn't come into being until the late 90's. Also PAA AH-IS number should be 40 and not under foreign volunteer category. All AH-1's were delivered by 1987. Sawdi E-3's being requisitioned/ seconded to PAF is a long shot.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

I believe the Ex-Aussie Mirage IIIO's didn't arrive until 1992 if I'm not wrong. And the Tu-126 was not operational in the late 80's and had been replaced by the An-74 Awacs, A-50/ IL-76 didn't come into being until the late 90's. Also PAA AH-IS number should be 40 and not under foreign volunteer category. All AH-1's were delivered by 1987.

Tu-126 in service till 1984 I think, since the A-50 replaced it. Even Tom Clancy refers to the A-50 AWACS in Red Storm Rising. I heard that the Mirage IIIOs were in PAF storage.

I put Foreign Volunteer stuff since that was done immediately, but I need to do a full Air Force for both sides.

 

[Lulldapull]

Tu-126 in service till 1984 I think, since the A-50 replaced it. Even Tom Clancy refers to the A-50 AWACS in Red Storm Rising. I heard that the Mirage IIIOs were in PAF storage.

I put Foreign Volunteer stuff since that was done immediately, but I need to do a full Air Force for both sides.

I also believe foreign volunteer numbers need to be revised down to a sqd each of the types listed. Realistically I could say a sqd of F-5 from RJAF and a Mirage V sqd from Libya.....

 

[Aestas Vivax]

I also believe foreign volunteer numbers need to be revised down to a sqd each of the types listed. Realistically I could say a sqd of F-5 from RJAF and a Mirage V sqd from Libya.....

This is what I got.

145 M48s from Jordan
175 M113s from the Arabs
12 Cobras from Jordon
60 F-5A/Es from Saudi and Turkey
15 Mirage Vs from UAE.
40 Mirage Vs from Saudi.
45 Mirage IIIs from the Arabs

 

[Lulldapull]

This is what I got.

145 M48s from Jordan
175 M113s from the Arabs
12 Cobras from Jordon
60 F-5A/Es from Saudi and Turkey
15 Mirage Vs from UAE.
40 Mirage Vs from Saudi.
45 Mirage IIIs from the Arabs

Bro that's way too much!.....lol......like I said, I'd put a sqd of RJAF F-5E's and a Sqd of LARAF Mirage V's. And da Sawdi never operated Mirages.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

Bro that's way too much!.....lol......like I said, I'd put a sqd of RJAF F-5E's and a Sqd of LARAF Mirage V's. And da Sawdi never operated Mirages.

I'd think Saudi would be purchasing it from Nations like Egypt and as such.

I do believe this is needed since Zia here is planning a war, and needs everything he can get.

 

[Old School]

This is what I got.

145 M48s from Jordan
175 M113s from the Arabs
12 Cobras from Jordon
60 F-5A/Es from Saudi and Turkey
15 Mirage Vs from UAE.
40 Mirage Vs from Saudi.
45 Mirage IIIs from the Arabs

For the sake of fantasy, go ahead. However, I would put a big zero in the foreign volunteer rubric, to be realistic. Actual Pakistani defense doctrine since 1972 has zero foreign input in combat scenario.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

For the sake of fantasy, go ahead. However, I would put a big zero in the foreign volunteer rubric, to be realistic. Actual Pakistani defense doctrine since 1972 has zero foreign input in combat scenario.

I don't think the PAF would be able to have an additional 160 pilots to fly those planes, but if you give a solution, I can make it into a plot point as well.

 

[Old School]

I don't think the PAF would be able to have an additional 160 pilots to fly those planes, but if you give a solution, I can make it into a plot point as well.

You need 10 maintenance crews per machine/ aircraft. That is mission impossible. Get Chinese/ DPRK SAM batteries as foreign volunteers instead. That is very real.

 

[Dogun18]

I don’t know much about Pakistan and India’s air game but it’s quite insane how they had that much gear back then. That’s comparable to what Algeria has now.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

You need 10 maintenance crews per machine/ aircraft. That is mission impossible. Get Chinese/ DPRK SAM batteries as foreign volunteers instead. That is very real.

Any suggestions? Am unsure of what SAMs the Chinese have other than Sa-2s back in that time period

 

[Aestas Vivax]

Revised
[Note; Army Aviation will be put with the army equipment] [Forgive minor mistakes]
Pakistan Air Force
Foreign Aid
3 Sqns of F-5A/Es [20 each] [Mostly Es] [Jordon, Turkey, Saudi]
5 sqns of Mirage Vs [12 each] [Libya, UAE, Egypt via Saudi]
1 Sqn of AH-1s [Towcobra, 12] [Jordon]

Newly Raised
2 sqn of F-16A/B OCU [40 As and 4 Bs]
2 Sqn of Mirage IIIO [24 Each]

Standing
1 Sqn Mirage III [15 EPs, 3DPs]
3 Sqn Mirage Vs [58]
4 Sqn Q-5 [50]
4 Sqn J-6 [110]
3 Sqn F-16 [28 As, 12 Bs]
2 Sqn J-7 [40]
1 Sqn Mirage IIIRP [12]

2 E-3A Leased

1 sqn with 12 C-130 (5-8, 7-E), 1 L-100
1 sqn with 3 Boeing 707, 3 Falcon 20, 2 F-27-200 (with Navy), 2 Beech (1 Travel Air, 1 Baron).

1 SAR hel sqn with 4 SA-319.
1 sqn with 12 SA-316, 4 SA-321


Indian Air Force
Standing
1 It bbr sqn with 9 Canberra.
5 sqn with 80 Jaguar IS.
14 sqn with 112 MiG-21 MF/PFMA.
3 sqn with 54 MiG-23 BN/UM.
4 sqn with 56 MiG-27.
4 sqn with 74 MiG-21 FL/U.
6 sqn with 108 MiG-21 bis/U.
2 sqn with 26 MiG-23 MF/UM.
3 sqn with 54 MiG-29/UB.
2 sqn with 36 Mirage 2000H/TH.
8 Jaguar with Sea Eagle.

1 Sqn with 18 Mi-25s
1 Sqn with 18 Mi-35s

1 Rec sqn with 8 Canberra PR.57.
1 Sqn with 6 MiG-25R, 2 MiG-25U.
1 sqn with 4 HS-748.
1 sqn with 2 Gulfstream IV SRA and 2 Learjet 29.
2 sqn with 30 An-12B
6 sqn with 108 An-32 Sutlej
1 sqn with 16 BAe-748;
2 sqn with 30 Do-228;
2 sqn with 24 Il-76 Gajraj
11 sqn with 80 Mi-8, 50 Mi-17, 10 Mi-26

Newly Raised
2 sqn with MiG-23MLD [36]
2 Sqn with MiG-21bis [36]
1 Sqn with MiG-31 [12]
1 Sqn with Mirage 2000H/TH [18]
2 sqn with 48 Mi-8
2 Tu-126 and 1 A-50 Leased

 

[Old School]

Any suggestions? Am unsure of what SAMs the Chinese have other than Sa-2s back in that time period

Right. PLA had a large number of HQ-2/ SA-2 back then. Vietcongs iwere successful in using this SAM though Saddam’s army took bribe and did not use them as such. However, most simulations done in the past suggests that we would have failed defending the sites. You have overlooked Soviet military stationed in Afghanistan at that time.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

Right. PLA had a large number of HQ-2/ SA-2 back then. Vietcongs iwere successful in using this SAM though Saddam’s army took bribe and did not use them as such. However, most simulations done in the past suggests that we would have failed defending the sites.

Sa-2 do suck, I do not think there would be a major impact unless you manage to put right on Srinagar lmao.

How many do you think the Chinese would give Pakistan, realistically.

 

[Old School]

Sa-2 do suck, I do not think there would be a major impact unless you manage to put right on Srinagar lmao.

How many do you think the Chinese would give Pakistan, realistic

They were in fact made available right after the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan. So at least 12 batteries.

 

[Old School]

The Soviets were more interested to see the Indo-Pak war than the Indians. They wanted us to move our focus from the Afghan operation. Soviets even lied to Indians about the Khalistan army to provoke an Indian attack on us. Operation Blue Star was a false flag operationbin reality and many innocents were killed.