[🇵🇰] Untitled 1987 War Book - Discussion

[Aestas Vivax]

The Soviets were more interested to see the In do-Pak war than the Indians. They wanted us to move our focus from the Afghan operation. Soviets even lied to Indians about the Khalistan army to provoke an Indian attack on us. Operation Blue Star was a false flag operationbin reality and many innocents were killed.

Ngl, I am going to have to figure out the positioning of the Pakistani Armed Forces and Indian Armed Forces.

It is easier to do this for info post-2017, before that, it was a bit harder, so I need help with that, given that naturally, India had to worry about the PRC and Pakistan had to worry about the USSR.

 

[Old School]

Ngl, I am going to have to figure out the positioning of the Pakistani Armed Forces and Indian Armed Forces.

It is easier to do this for info post-2017, before that, it was a bit harder, so I need help with that, given that naturally, India had to worry about the PRC and Pakistan had to worry about the USSR.

PRC would never directly intervene for any country except DPRK unless mainland China is attacked. Be clear about that. PRC will never directly assist us in operation. But Soviet used to bomb our border posts and sent sabotage bombers to our cities time to time. We were also directly and physically taking part inside Afghanistan against the Soviets.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

PRC would never directly intervene for any country except DPRK unless mainland China is attacked. Be clear about that. PRC will never directly assist us in operation. But Soviet used to bomb our border posts and sent sabotage bombers to our cities time to time. We were also directly and physically taking part inside Afghanistan against the Soviets.

Hence, do you have any sources I could use for positioning during the 1980s, for both nations of India and Pakistan.

 

[Old School]

Hence, do you have any sources I could use for positioning during the 1980s, for both nations of India and Pakistan.

I have to give you something which is cleared for the public domain and not classified. Let me look and you can also search for the Indian ORBAT at that time as Indians usually love to show off while not caring much about information security.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

I have to give you something which is cleared for the public domain and not classified. Let me look and you can also search for the Indian ORBAT at that time as Indians usually love to show off while not caring much about information security.

Public domain would be great, and any outdated not useful stuff which won't call for a black van, would be great.

Searching Indian ORBAT gives nothing to me.

 

[Old School]

Searching Indian ORBAT gives nothing to me.

You need to do advanced search than simply googling. You have to know what documents you are looking. I usually look for books written by Indian generals and diplomats. Those are great resource. Indians love writing books too. Then you have to know which general’s book- Is he contemporary of that time?

 

[Lulldapull]

So the scenario is that we are heavily involved in Khalistan guerrilla war. IAF has covertly but unsuccessfully attacked Kahuta with minimal damage cuz the main facilities are buried deep in the mountains and the Soviets are massing troops on FATA borders. All three are plotting their next move.

 

[Lulldapull]

My line up in simple terms for both sides AF's will be as follows (remember, this is 1987 we are talking about):

PAF Operational
110 Mirage III/ V's
180 F-6's
54 A-5's
40 F-16's
First batch of 60 F-7P skybolts in slow induction (they had not really arrived until 1990 to replace F-6's)
PAF Reserves/ second line
15 B-57B's
40 F-86E's (mothballed) in storage
15 T-33's/ 25 T-37's
PAF emergency wartime requisitions
1 Sqd RJAF F-5E's
1 Sqd LARAF Mirage V's
possible 1 sqd UAE Mirage V's
Note: 1 sqd here means 10-12 aircraft.....not 24 aircraft!.....lol....in 71 war all we could muster were 9 RJAF F-104A's and then Shah Iran agreed to belatedly send us a sqd of F-5E's toward the end of the war.

IAF Operational
500 Mig-21FL's/ M's/ Bis
40 Mig-23MF's
40Mig-23BN's
40 Mig-27's
40 Mirage 2000's
40 Mig-29's
IAF Reserve/ second line
50 Su-7's in long term storage
60 Hawker Hunters
50 Canberra
80 Ajeet
40 Marut's (mothballed) in storage

 

[Aestas Vivax]

My line up in simple terms for both sides AF's will be as follows (remember, this is 1987 we are talking about):

PAF Operational
110 Mirage III/ V's
180 F-6's
54 A-5's
40 F-16's
First batch of 60 F-7P skybolts in slow induction (they had not really arrived until 1990 to replace F-6's)
PAF Reserves/ second line
15 B-57B's
40 F-86E's (mothballed) in storage
15 T-33's/ 25 T-37's
PAF emergency wartime requisitions
1 Sqd RJAF F-5E's
1 Sqd LARAF Mirage V's
possible 1 sqd UAE Mirage V's
Note: 1 sqd here means 10-12 aircraft.....not 24 aircraft!.....lol....in 71 war all we could muster were 9 RJAF F-104A's and then Shah Iran agreed to belatedly send us a sqd of F-5E's toward the end of the war.

IAF Operational
500 Mig-21FL's/ M's/ Bis
40 Mig-23MF's
40Mig-23BN's
40 Mig-27's
40 Mirage 2000's
40 Mig-29's
IAF Reserve/ second line
50 Su-7's in long term storage
60 Hawker Hunters
50 Canberra
80 Ajeet
40 Marut's (mothballed) in storage

I still belive the revised list I made is better.

Essentially a rushed arms race, with Pakistan get the Volunteer forces to ensure that despite the lack of numbers, quality is high enough. PAF is going to be the tip of the spear, and they need everything to ensure that they give the Ground Troops enough time to bust the door open.

PAF irl should have pushed for the F-20, to replace it's F-6 and A-5 fleet, would give a decent edge.

 

[Lulldapull]

I still belive the revised list I made is better.

Essentially a rushed arms race, with Pakistan get the Volunteer forces to ensure that despite the lack of numbers, quality is high enough. PAF is going to be the tip of the spear, and they need everything to ensure that they give the Ground Troops enough time to bust the door open.

PAF irl should have pushed for the F-20, to replace it's F-6 and A-5 fleet, would give a decent edge.

You have to keep in mind that a good half of the IAF strength was 24/7 deployed up north to face the Chinese threat. With IAF’s western command getting the bulk of the remainder. So you could say that the disparity between the IAF vs the PAF was not as stark as the numbers denote.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

You have to keep in mind that a good half of the IAF strength was 24/7 deployed up north to face the Chinese threat. With IAF’s western command getting the bulk of the remainder. So you could say that the disparity between the IAF vs the PAF was not as stark as the numbers denote.

1980s, Bulk of the IAF was still aimed at Pakistan. Chinese lacked the facilities to really target India, hence why the wake up call after Galwan, since the Chinese had more assets due to increase of infrastructure.

 

[Lulldapull]

1980s, Bulk of the IAF was still aimed at Pakistan. Chinese lacked the facilities to really target India, hence why the wake up call after Galwan, since the Chinese had more assets due to increase of infrastructure.

True, but they both had a sharp short war in 1975. IAF started deploying assets up north and created their northern command, relieving the pressure on us.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

True, but they both had a sharp short war in 1975.

True, but they both had a sharp short war in 1975. IAF started deploying assets up north and created their northern command, relieving the pressure on us.

Still, there is enough to outnumber the PAF 3:1.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

As per the Military Balance.

Indian Army
ARMY: 1,100,000.
HQ: 5 Regional Comd (- Fd Army), 10 Corps.
2 armd div (each 2/3 armed, 1 SP arty (2 SP fd, 1 med regt) bde).
1 mech div (each 3 mech (4/6 mech bn, 3 armd regt), 1 arty bde).
21 inf div (each 2-5 inf, 1 arty bde; some have armd regt).
11 mtn div (each 3-4 bde, 1 or more arty regt). 19 indep bde: 8 armd, 9 inf, 1 mtn, 1 AB/cdo. 5 indep arty bde.
5 AD bde.
4 engr bde.
These formations comprise:
56 tk regt (bn).
25 mech, 332 inf bn.
9 AB/cdo bn.
190 arty regt (bn): incl 1 hy, 5 MRL, 50 med (11 SP), 69 fd (3 SP), 39 mtn.
29 AD arty regt; perhaps 10 SAM gp (3-5 bty each). 7 sqn, 25 flt, Air Observation.
6 ATK/tpt, 4 liaison hel sqn.
EQUIPMENT:
MBT: 3,100 (500 in store): some 500 T-55, 900 T-72/-M1, 1,700 Vijayanta.
LIGHT TANKS: 100 PT-76.
RECCE: BRDM-2.
AIFV: 800 BMP-1/-2 (Sarath).
APC: 400 OT-62/-64, 50 BTR-60.
TOWED ARTY: over 4,000 incl: 75mm/76mm: 900 75/24 mtn, 215 Yug M-48; 88mm: 1,000 25-pdr (retiring); 100mm: 185 M-1944; 105mm: some 800 (incl M-56 pack), some 100 IFG Mk II; 130mm: 550 M-46; 140mm: 150 5.5-in (retiring); 155mm: 410 FH-77B.
SP ARTY: 105mm: 80 Abbot; 130mm: 100 mod M-46
MRL: 122mm: 80 BM-21.
MORTARS: 81mm: L16A1; 82mm: M-43; 120mm: 1,000 M-43; 160mm: 200 M-43.
ATGW: SS-11-B1, Milan, AT-3 Sagger, AT-4 Spigot.
RCL: 57mm: M-18; 84mm: Carl Gustav, 106mm: 1,000+ M-40A1.
AD GUNS 2,750: 23mm: 140 ZU 23-2, 75 ZSU-23-4
SP; 40mm: 1,245 L40/60, 790 L40/70; 94mm: 500 3.7-in.
SAM: 26 SA-6, 620 SA-7, 20 SA-8A/-B, SA-13,
SA-16, 25 Tigercat launchers.
HELICOPTERS: 9 sqn with 50 Chetak, 40 Cheetah, 30 Krishnar Mk2.

RESERVES: Territorial Army: 30 inf bn.
DEPLOYMENT:
North- 1 Corps with 2 inf, 1 mtn div; I mtn, I indep inf, 1 indep arty bde. 1 Corps with 4 inf div; 2 indep armd, I indep inf, 2 indep arty bde.
West- 1 Corps with 1 armd, I mech div; 1 Corps with 2 inf div; 1 Corps with 3 inf div.
Central - 1 Corps with 1 armd, 2 inf div, plus 3 indep div (2 inf, 1 mtn).
East -3 Corps each with 3 mtn div.
South 1 Corps with 4 inf div.

Pakistan
ARMY: 500,000+.
Corps HQ, 1 area comd.
2 armd div.
19 inf div.
6 indep armd bde.
5 indep inf bde.
7 corps arty bde (2 more forming).
4 AD arty bde. 5 engr bde.
3 armd recce regt. 1 SF gp (3 bn).
Av: 1 ac, 4 hel sqn; indep observation flt.

EQUIPMENT:
MBT: 1,980+: 150 M-47, 280 M-48A5, 50 T-54/-55, 1.300 Ch Type-59, 200 Ch Type-69.
APC: 800 M-113.
TOWED ARTY: 1,405: 85mm: 200 Ch Type-56; 88mm: 200 25-pdr; 105mm: 300 M-101, 50 M-56 pack; 122mm: 200 Ch Type-60; 130mm: 200 Ch
175 Type-59-1; 140mm: 45 5.5in; 155mm: 30 M-59, 60 M-114, 100 M-198; 203mm: 20 M-115. SP ARTY: 215: 105mm: 50 M-7; 155mm: 125 M-109A2; 203mm: 40 M-110A2.
MRL: 122mm: 36 BM-11.
MORTARS: 81mm; 120mm: AM-50, M-61. SSM: Hatf-1, Hatf-2.
ATGW: 200 Cobra, 224 TOW (incl 24 on M-901 SP).
Ch Red Arrow.
RL: 89mm: M-20 3.5-in.
RCL: 75mm: Type-52; 106mm: M-40A1.
AD GUNS: 14.5mm; 35mm: 200 GDF-002; 37mm: Ch Type-55/-65; 40mm: M1, 100 L/60; 57mm: Ch Type-59.
SAM: 100 Stinger, Redeye, 144 RBS-70, 500 Anza

AVIATION:
AIRCRAFT:
SURVEY: 1 Commander 840.
LIAISON: 1 Cessna 421, 2 Commander 690,
80 Mashshaq.
OBSERVATION: 40 O-1E, 50 Mashshaq.
HELICOPTERS:
ATTACK: 20 AH-IF (TOW).
TRANSPORT: 7 Bell 205, 10-206B, 16 Mi-8, 6 IAR/SA-315B, 23 IAR/SA-316, 35 SA-330, 5 UH-1H.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

Do give suggestions to what could be added in the 1 year of build up

 

[Old School]

You also need to include the fuel supply and production capacity of the respective military-industrial complexes in both Pakistan and India, as the troops will run out of ammunition/ spare parts very quickly in wartime, and import is not an option, which is time-consuming in case of a naval blockade/ embargo/ sanctions. Logistics has been the most critical factor in the military since the birth of the military thousands of years ago. An army never loses the war due to training, but it loses due to logistical shortcomings. We lost East Pakistan due to logistical issues. Amateurs talk about hardware/training, while professionals talk about logistics regarding military affairs.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

You also need to include the fuel supply and production capacity of the respective military-industrial complexes in both Pakistan and India, as the troops will run out of ammunition/ spare parts very quickly in wartime, and import is not an option, which is time-consuming in case of a naval blockade/ embargo/ sanctions. Logistics has been the most critical factor in the military since the birth of the military thousands of years ago. An army never loses the war due to training, but it loses due to logistical shortcomings. Amateurs talk about hardware/training, while professionals talk about logistics regarding military affairs.

I basically have the Soviets do the heavy lifting for Indian supply, with the Arabs doing their best for Pakistan.

On ground stuff, I won't comment, that's for people to read :>

 

[Old School]

I basically have the Soviets do the heavy lifting for Indian supply, with the Arabs doing their best for Pakistan.

On ground stuff, I won't comment, that's for people to read :>

Arabs will not move one inch, and Indians never needed the Soviets to supply due to their gigantic domestic military-industrial complex. Arabs will only accommodate our leaders if they need asylum while fleeing from Pakistan from the people, as happened in the past. Please read about the Indian military-industrial complex's production capacity, which is bigger than the entire EU and third to China and Russia.

 

[Aestas Vivax]

Arabs will not move one inch, and Indians never needed the Soviets to supply due to their gigantic domestic military-industrial complex. Arabs will only accommodate our leaders if they need asylum while fleeing from Pakistan from the people, as happened in the past. Please read about the Indian military-industrial complex's production capacity, which is bigger than the entire EU and third to China and Russia.

I do not think India in the late 1980s is as capable as it is currently. Sure they can mobilize for a long war, but for a 2 week war, which I have planned, short term matters.

What do you suggest be done for Pakistan? Don't want it to be a Indian of Pakistani wankfest, and want a neutral like book which both sides can enjoy.

 

[Old School]

I do not think India in the late 1980s is as capable as it is currently. Sure they can mobilize for a long war, but for a 2 week war, which I have planned, short term matters.

What do you suggest be done for Pakistan? Don't want it to be a Indian of Pakistani wankfest, and want a neutral like book which both sides can enjoy.

You can write as it stood in the late 80's for real, with Pakistan as the underdog without a declared nuclear deterrent. Karachi port is the flash point under threat as the central logistical hub. Iran is aligned with India due to Zia-ul-Haq's proximity to anti-Shiite forces backed by Saudis at that time and still is—Afghanistan under the Soviet military. China was building the economy with Western help,p and they hardly had spare resources interest Pakistan. There is no land corridor to Pakistan !!! That was the accurate picture. You can portray it as a stalemate, with both sides suffering huge losses and settling for a ceasefire after two weeks.